We may have found some ground that can sustain Rush Limbaugh and Al Franken at the same time.These folks remain apparently ticked off about Franken's career as a satirist, during which he...wrote satire, some of which was off-colour and sexist if you read it listerally.
While I can understand Minnesotans being a little bit trigger-shy when it comes to electing someone from an entertainment career, it's downright silly for them to draw this kind of line in the sand.
And the DFL had better be careful because Franken has a better shot at defeating Norm than St. Thomas grad, Michael Ciresi.
29 comments:
They're just throwing a huff and puff to get the feminists behind them.
My question is, so what, where are they going to go?
Don't say Seneca Falls, it's just not that funny...
In case you haven't kept up, its Jack (http://www.jackforsenate.org/) not Cerisi that was still in the race. Although he is a professor at St. Thomas so he has equally little chance of winning anything or being successful, or even coherent for that matter.
I was just going on what the Politico article said...that there is speculation that Ciresi will jump back in...I do not have firsthand confirmation of it, though.
On what grounds do you speculate that Franken is better suited than Ciresi to take on Coleman?
Money isn't an issue with for Ciresi. Neither is his career. He's spent 30 years as a distinguished attorney and raising/contributing millions of dollars for progressive causes.
If you think it's national attention that is needed to win this seat, wouldn't Ciresi beating a hack like Franken in the primary bring more positive attention to Minnesota than Al continually being beaten down for all the dumb crap that's come out of his mouth?
Yeah, Ciresi's a regular Robin Hood with that sham tobacco case. He may have proved legal skill, but the case stunk to the high heavens.
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot. Al Franken has improved the lives of millions, too. He's always offered incredible solutions to the problems facing America instead of just bitching about them and he has a long history of helping Democrats in Minnesota.
Wait, none of those statements are true.
Franken's main objective in this race is to get people to pay attention to him. If he were looking to further Democratic causes, he'd have stayed in the private sector where he belongs.
Ciresi's legal work has had world-wide impact. He prevented tobacco companies from marketing to children, got thousands of documents released proving that tobacco companies were knowingly selling a toxic product, improved work-place safety regulations around the world after the Bhopal chemical disaster, has provided numerous scholarships to children to bridge the racial gap in education, raised millions of dollars for Democratic candidates and has given hundreds of thousands of dollars to candidates over the years.
What has Franken done, other than lie to everyone by telling them he was a close, personal friend of the late Senator Paul Wellstone?
Ok, Mr. Ciresi supporter.
Look, I didn't call the guy the Antichrist or anything. My original speculation was that Franken would be a better general election candidate than Ciresi.
As evidence, I have his earlier failed run for the office as well as the fact that if public opinion was so goddamned unanimous behind him then he would have pushed through and gotten the DFL nomination in the conventional way.
I have no evidence that MC beats his wife or has offered proxies to satisfy the oral fixations of all the children of Minnesota who are not smoking because of his work, for which he was paid handsomely.
I just think that if he was so clearly the choice candidate, someone's doing a bad job of convincing everyone of it.
I certainly am a Ciresi supporter, and I pray he reenters the race so we don't have to put up with 6 more years of Coleman. I have good reasons for supporting Ciresi's candidacy, but you have no compelling reason to support Franken.
Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of people in the world who are fascinated with celebrity. And that is what made people flock to him in the first place.
One thing that really ruined this cycle, for Mike, is that there were so many new people in our caucus system. These people showed up and knew that Franklin (as they called him at my convention) made them laugh once-upon-a-time so they caucused for him without understanding how awful his record and proposed policies were.
Beyond staunch liberals, the DFL endorsement shouldn't be taken as a gauge of the general public's support. It is time consuming and boring and few people actually put up with it. Remember from statistics that if a sample differs in a systematic way, data collected from that sample can't be generalized the the entire population.
The 2000 race isn't exactly applicable here either. He made a good run in the primary and this was an endorsement race. It was nothing like the herds of under-informed that we saw this year.
I will concede that his campaign wasn't effective, and he should take some flack for that. He didn't come out with comparative literature until it was too late and for some reason, people saw his qualifications as a liability this time around.
Speaking of Mike's career, you seem to hold his wealth against him. Franken isn't exactly hurting for money: what he "accidentally" didn't pay in taxes is more than I make in 2 years, and I have a decent job. Mike took on incredibly risky cases - ones he could've chosen to pass up - and should be awarded for his work.
I find your pro-Franken double standard shocking. You don't think Franken's past should be scrutinized even though he uses his past writings as his selling point and then you turn around and criticize Ciresi for making to much money?! Which is it? Is the past applicable or not?
Ciresi embodies the American dream. Raised in a working class home, he was able to work his way through college and become one of the country's most influential attorneys. I'd call that inspiring, wouldn't you?
Finally, lets discuss Franken's money. Most of it comes from outside of Minnesota, and he's spent a huge amount of that money. If you look at his FEC reports, he has less than half the cash on hand that Coleman does while consistently out-raising him, and Coleman has had to operate an office for 4 years. Franken, though campaigning since 2004, didn't have an office/staff until 2007. Do you see a problem here? His campaign spends money at almost the same rate as it raises.
Cerisi dropped out because he was polling well behind Jack. He did it to save his own dignity.
His campaign tactics were derisive and somewhat offensive. The man has/had no class, and us DFL'ers sighed with relief we he dropped out as it would have been a bitter hurtful campaign. Instigated by Cirisi.
If he reenters now, he will be seen as a splitter (as in Judean People's Front).
This election will be about the young voters, and from what people on his campaign staff have told me, it is unlikely that he will get support from anyone under 55.
I have met him and listened to him speak, he is about as inspiring as the Chicago Cubs (I am taking everyone down with me). To further indulge the metaphor, if it wasn't for wrigley field everyone would leave by the 6th inning.
As for Franken, he has been a consistent and needed voice for progressive causes for more than a decade. He will not back down to republicans, or media bias, and will call BS for what it is. Exactly the type of thing we need in Washington to clean up the mess of Coleman et al.
Also, as a friend of Paul Wellstone, I believe he wants to carry on the traditions and legacy of our late Senator. I think a lot of the reason Franken is running is to do the work of his late friend. I will happily give him the chance to do so.
Call me misinformed I guess.
You are misinformed. Ciresi was actually polling even with Franken and Coleman, which we are still seeing. Ciresi recently polled even with Franken and has been out of the race for 3 months(I think the poll was done in late May, look it up). Coleman does have a slight lead on both of them at this point.
Also, Franken wasn't friends with Wellstone as he so often claims. He did ONE fund raiser for Wellstone in 2002. ONE. Of course, both Franken and JNP dropped his name repeatedly to get as closely associated with him as possible. I think that's disgusting.
You know, when Wellstone died, it wasn't the Frankens or the Nelson-Pallmeyers that his family turned to, it was Mike. They sought his council and instead of exploiting Senator Wellstone's death for political gain, Mike let the man rest in peace.
Besides, what about Franken is Wellstonian? His support of the war? His lack of commitment to an effective health-care plan? Mocking a college student with a lisp simply because he identified as a Republican? Nope. I don't see the similarity.
What we need in the Senate is a competent leader and a voice for Minnesota. Franken doesn't have an in-depth understanding of the policy and I doubt he'll be able to legislate effectively. Who's going to want to work with him? Pretty much every Republican is out and half of the Democrats will see him as too risky to associate closely. Not only that, but he either maliciously evaded taxes (I suspect this is the case) or is too incompetent to know such simple tax law that he is unfit to hold ANY elected office.
Ciresi is the one who doesn't back down. He continued to push the tobacco companies, who had hundreds of attorneys working on their behalf, even though everyone was telling him to settle. How do you not remember that? It doesn't take a lot of courage to sit in a booth joking about date-rape and bad-mouthing elected officials without providing solutions to the problems facing the nation.
Well, I have not lived in MN for several years, so I'm sure you will excuse some distance here.
1) Unless you were sitting at the kitchen table with the Ciresi and Wellstone families, I guess MC was not all that humble if you know the story about how they were sought in the Wellstone's time of need. And people bickering over who knew a deceased person is very tacky, but if you choose to claim MC is Wellstonier-than-thou, you can have that mantle.
2) I am not begrudging either of these men for having amassed a certain amount of wealth. It's admirable. But let's look at a little bit of context. MC's work was not Mother Theresa-like. He was being paid handsomely for doing this work. On the morality scale, it's still far below what cops, social workers and teachers do every day. We can all believe that the work retained some social value, but he didn't do this without making himself ridculously wealthy. Not a sin by any stretch, but it's dishonest to pretend like it was all done out of the goodness of his heart.
I'm not saying he had 100% selfless goals, I just think it's disingenuous to attack him for making money on law-suits when Franken has made a small fortune doing nothing but whine about crap without offering anything up. Furthermore, Mike has used his "ridiculous" wealth to fund much-needed charities throughout Minnesota and the country. Instead of paying lip-service to issues, he's actually put his money where his mouth is.
Furthermore, someone with Mike's talent could've easily moved into a less risky/equally lucrative practice. His commitment to social justice is overwhelmingly apparent.
Also, if you paid attention to the campaign before Ciresi withdrew, the only thing you ever heard come out of those other two was "Wellstone Wellstone Wellstone. Me Me Wellstone". It was disgusting, especially when you find out that neither had as close a connection to Wellstone as they were claiming. At no point did I claim Ciresi was like Wellstone, however, he was at least respectful of a dead man who he knew better than either of the other candidates.
I won't excuse any distance. The problem with this race is that non-Minnesotans are putting their 2 cents (and thousand of dollars) into this race in a way that will drag Democrats down across the state, not just put a flawed individual up against Coleman.
There simply isn't a compelling reason to support Franken until after the primary, at which point he'd just be the Democratic candidate. Not everyone is a Democrat, so the tag "Democrat" won't win the election for him.
Great. Then we'll all await the return of the Christ child...I'm sure that once he steps in, it will be apparent and all the DLFers will flock to him, since the case for him is so incredibly obvious. It shouldn't even be a serious contest if it's as clear as you've made it sound now.
More than just DFL activist vote in a primary. Maybe he'll win, maybe he won't. But at least people will have a choice. Those of us who support Ciresi have and give good reasons to support him. I still haven't heard a single reason from you why Franken should be the candidate.
We should be putting our best forward because Coleman will be hard enough to beat. If Franken is on the November ballot, I call it for Coleman. You may think people don't care that Franken has a divisive, offensive past but a lot of people do.
Franken is an incompetent liar and I would have a hard time voting for him as a strong Democrat. I'll vote for him (provided he's on the ballot and there isn't a 3rd party candidate) but my support would end there.
OK, I'll give you a few. I think Al's heart is in the right place. I can say that about both MC and AF.
I and others find him to be charming and have a quick wit. You simply cannot argue that a good portion of your activists up there don't hold this opinion, else he would not have made it past day 1 in a campaign.
I also think he's gained good rhetorical skills over his time on AA radio and being on the rubber chicken circuit that will help him in a debate.
You have certainly outdone me here in your recitation of the MC biography. However, I think you might be overestimating the degree to which voters are going to know all the facts that you do.
Some people have argued that we make flash judgements about people and either warm up to them or we don't....then we spend our time later justifying our decisions with facts.
I suspect that some people are going to warm to Al and vote for him.
Some, like yourself, may not. So at this point, we're back where we started. I find Al to be a much more appealing candidate and you...do not.
Have you seen Al in a debate? Not good. He's good in scripted environments, and his charm will fades quickly if he's not given ample time to set up his response to criticism.
Do you vote in Minnesota? Are you a well respected political strategist? If neither of these are you, it's not your place to comment on this race.
What I'm getting at with all of these things is that Mike isn't the easy target Al is, and he seems a lot more genuine to me than a man who moved back here just in the nick of time to establish residency to run for the Senate.
Wow! Now I have no place commenting on a US Senate race on my own blog. You've sure got some chutzpah, there, "Robert." Frankly, it's none of your goddamned business where I vote or what I do for a living, but thanks for asking!
For being so misinformed, I still have some meaningful connections to DFL circles in the state. And, although it is antidotal, everyone that I have talked to does see that Franklin is not perfect, they are much more thankful to have him than MC.
In Feb. my email was Spammed with MC emails (how he got my email address is beyond me, I think he leeched off the DFL list). In those emails he accused Franklin of the following:
"Al Franken would have voted for the war in Iraq."
"In 2006, Al Franken opposed a timetable for the withdrawal of US troops."
Franklin "Would be crushed by the sense of responsibility" by holding office.
He then goes on to attack his judgment, implies he is untruthful, and lacks judgement.
It's one of the most negative campaign emails I have ever read or seen. It was such a complete turn off to see a democrat doing that to another democrat.
I think MC is just upset because he thought he was entitled to the seat, in a Hilliary-esque sort of way.
But I think the key is: Don't hate because democracy didn't pick your favorite candidate.
And FU for implying that thousands of new people turning out to the caucus to make their voices heard was somehow bad for the party and democracy in general. They made their choice clear.
Also, not sure where you get your poll numbers from, but pretty much everyone that I saw had MC polling behind JNP. I think its quite obvious why MC bowed out before any of the real conventions took place and delegates actually chose. It would have ruined his chances to ever run again, and taken the wind out of the sails of his blowhard and obtuse followers. All 17 of them.
The truth hurts. Franken did support the war in Iraq, opposed a timetable for withdrawl until he formally announced his candidacy and repeatedly lied about it. I went to the debates and personally heard Franken lie about that stuff. Vetting candidates is what the endorsement process should be about. If Franken admitted to having a lack of good judgment on the war, then we should know about that. I would argue that his campaign wasn't strong enough in its criticism of Franken.
I'm including a link to the Minnesota Monitor that has the Star Tribune Poll's graphics showing that Ciresi was polling even with Franken and ahead of JNP...and it was conducted 3 months after he dropped out. So I guess I show you as misinformed yet again.
http://www.minnesotamonitor.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4032
Dan: thanks for deleting my last post. Was the satire route not a sufficient explanation of my behavior?
The truth does hurt. Franken won the DFL endorsement and will run against Norm Coleman in the fall. More delegates supported him at the convention that the other candidates.
Is he prefect, no; can he win this fall, yes; will he be a good senator for progressive causes, definitely.
Sorry, thanks for playing.
BTW: According to the Trib, he was trailing both JNP and AF when he dropped out, had lost the support of party activists, and generally had little energy in his campaign after being down 4-1 in fundraising dollars.
http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/16463506.html
I don't think it was money or career that cost him the nomination, likely energy and message. If anything this thread caused me to throw Al another $50, so thanks for rejuvenating my interest in his campaign. I am going to go back to forgetting who MC is, and concentrate on the challenge that lies before us DLFers and get Al to congress.
Peons for Peons in '08.
Yes, I deleted your post in which you wrote some of your rants off to "satire."
It was a rash decision and I actually do regret it...I should have left it up.
I try to admit mistakes here when they happen and that was one of them. That was bad form on my part.
I suppose we'll have to wait and see if MC enters the race to know what will happen. And thanks to my other Minnesotan buddy (who had much bigger things on his mind this weekend) for engaging in this one.
Not sure if you'll come back here, Robert, but I honestly hope you do. Maybe we'll find something we do agree on, and it'll be nice for one of us to eat crow come November.
Chode, he lagged in the delegate count, not in a poll for a primary or general election. He continues to be just as popular as Franken even without campaigning. I think it's indicative of the trash that is Frankens campaign to insult Ciresi on a personal level. He has arguably done more good for Minnesota, and maybe even the world, than Franken and Coleman combined.
I doubt that he'll win, and if he is able to ride Obama's coat-tails to the Senate, he'll be a poor Senator at best. Democrats in vulnerable seats will have to publicly slam him in an attempt to stay elected (which we've already seen with several MN House members) and few Republicans will work with him (would you work well with someone who publicly called your wife ugly and you dishonest?).
I will say, I've enjoyed this exchange. I only wish that it wasn't so much like the calls I made on Mike's behalf...where people heard Mike's achievements and tried to convince me that Franken's writings/celebrity were going to win the election. I've been active in the DFL for some time and have never seen more irrational support for a candidate. I was a Hillary supporter, too, and I'll concede that Obama supporters at least had logical reasons for supporting him. (I'm on board with Obama now, so lets not fight about this one).
By the way, I've volunteered at the DFL and any candidate running for the party's endorsement is entitled to buy the DFL's e/mailing list. If you have a problem with that, bitch out the DFL for selling that list, don't call the candidates "leeches" for using every tool available to them.
Lets chat in person on the beat. If you are volunteering let me know, we can tag team and discuss our thoughts.
I'm done volunteering for now. I would probably work with the Walz campaign, but I just moved out of the 1st CD, so chances of me being able to volunteer for him are slim.
If I did do anything, it would be lobbying the DFL to get rid of this awful caucus system in favor of an earlier primary.
You're right, that would surely limit the influence of the uninformed masses.
Chode, what's with the attitude?!
An earlier primary brings another set of people into play, the people who think voting is important but can't devote a night to caucusing, an entire Sat/Sun. to their SD or county unit convention, their CD convention, and then an entire weekend to the State convention. It's quite a time commitment and had I not been living close to Rochester for the past several years, there would be absolutely no chance I could've participated and there are a lot of people like me.
The process is simply too time consuming and boring for regular people to be included. Also, it would be more representative of the party as a whole.
I didn't mean to have an attitude about it, sorry. I agree a primary makes much more sense, but it does in no way cut out the advantages of name recognition and celebrity that you railed against up above. In fact it would exacerbate them.
Sorry I misconstrued your tone. It seemed a bit harsh, but that's the risk we take with written word!
After this year, I'm not so sure about that statement. Besides, a primary is a lot like a general in that media is more important than bean-feeds, etc.
Did you see the latest KSTP/Survey USA Poll? Ciresi is polling better against Coleman that Franken (Coleman-Franken is 52%-40% respectively and Coleman-Ciresi is 50%-40%). If he got back in for the primary, I think Ciresi would win and the fact that he beat Franken would give him all the name recognition needed to propel him to a win in November.
http://kaaltv.com/article/stories/S479764.shtml?cat=10728
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